Stop Trying to Fit In: Eric Gee on Personality Types, Self-Acceptance, and Mental Health

[00:00:01] Hey there, listeners. Welcome to Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads, our podcast where we normalize conversations around mental health. That's right. I'm Dirty Skittles and alongside my amazing co-host, G-Rex, we're here to share stories and tips from our incredible guests. Each episode, we deep dive into struggles and triumphs of mental health, offering practical advice and heartfelt support because no one should feel alone in their journey.

[00:00:31] Join us as we break the stigma and build a community of understanding and compassion. Tune in and let's start talking about the shit that goes on in our heads. Three, two, one. Welcome back to another episode of Shit That Goes On In Our Heads. I'm here with the awesome Dirty Skittles. And today we have an amazing guest. Eric, welcome to the podcast. Welcome. Thank you for having me. Yay! I'm so excited.

[00:00:59] First question. Do you play piano? No, I just put a fake one behind me so that people think that I'm like musically inclined. It's actually just, you know, to match the album covers. No, I was, I'm Asian, so I was forced to play when I was a kid. Like I was the stereotypical. Like, yeah, like, you know, play for us. So I started when I was like five, but I didn't practice as much as I should have. So I'm not as good as I should be. Ah, that's why it's closed and it's now part of decorations. Yes. It's a decorative piece.

[00:01:29] Yeah. Yeah. My sister actually and I were supposed to play and practice an hour a day. And that's actually brought us closer together because whenever our parents would leave, like we'd make a note of like saying like, okay, you're going to say that I practice and I'm going to say that you practice and then we'll be okay. And it took us a while to realize, you know, our parents were only gone for like half an hour. And we'd tell them that we practice an hour each. It doesn't mathematically make sense. But, you know. In our heads, it mathematically makes sense. Yeah. You know, it's all good. Yeah.

[00:01:58] It took us a while to realize, oh, our parents were letting us get away with that. They were probably just like, well, it's okay. As long as they're lying together, then, you know, bring them closer together. It was a team building exercise is what it was. Got it. Got it. Do you, I mean, did you learn to love it eventually? Yeah. Joking. I actually do. I still play and I do enjoy. I mean, I don't play the pieces that I used to, but without the practice, but I think it's a great way to relax and just kind of like, I guess I'm not a great meditator.

[00:02:28] So I think that's my meditation. Right. It's just like focusing and like fixating on one thing and not worrying about other stuff. It's kind of nice once in a while. Very cool. Very cool. I don't have like a music, musical bone in my body. Never played an instrument. I like to listen to music. I'll dance to music. Can't sing to save my life. So I'm always super envious when I see like instruments and like you actually can play it. I think the end of the day, it's more like singing in the shower. Right.

[00:02:56] It's just like, it's something that you're into that you can get like passionate about. And it doesn't really matter how you do it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess that is why you are a life coach. Because you believe. I guess something I truly believe I say quite a bit. You know, I used to play basketball all the time, like at, you know, just join pickup games at the park and stuff. And that's kind of can be always a little weird because, you know, you never know who you're gonna end up playing with. But a friend of mine used to always say like, you have these guys out there playing for their playground contracts.

[00:03:25] Because, you know, none of us are gonna make the NBA, you know, like we're there to like exercise, compete and have a good time. And yeah, none of us are, but some people just take it way too seriously. Yeah. They put their heart and soul into it. Yeah. They gotta make the NBA from, you know, Veterans Park. Yeah. That's what I think about like when I go to a karaoke bar. And like we're all drinking and they're just to have fun. But then you'll have like that one person that like this is the moment that they have been preparing for. Yeah. They don't look at the screen.

[00:03:55] They don't look at the words because they know the words already. They just go out and song out there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They are auditioning for something and yeah. And then you have to follow them and you're like, dang, now it's my turn. Yeah. Everyone puts Chambawamba and they're putting like Adele up there. Yes. Just bust out Adele and... And they're hitting every note and you're like, damn. Eric, I do have a question. What made you decide like with your coaching and everything that you...

[00:04:24] How did you get into like personality typing and things like that? Because I'm really interested in that. Yeah. You know, it's like, I think like a lot of kids feel that way in high schools. I felt that same way probably earlier than that where you just kind of like feel different. Like you're like, everyone's different. And I think the problem is, I think when we go to school, sometimes they're always trying to say, no, be similar because similarity and feeling similar to people make you feel safe. Right? In school, it's good for school to feel safe.

[00:04:51] I don't necessarily know if that's the best way to get that feeling of safety, but that's what happens. And so yeah, in high school, I was always like, wow, like, I think I have different... A different value system than people. Not to get too deep, but like, I definitely feel like I'm not really into a lot of things that like trying to get great grades. And like, I just didn't feel that way. And I was trying to figure it out. And someone introduced me to a test that he had done. This was a friend who was a couple years older. And I think they had him do a test for like college, probably like college prep, which

[00:05:21] I think is way too late. I think I should be doing it like for kids in junior high, but I took the test and I just got really into it. And I started studying more, right? And reading about the different methodologies because obviously there's not just one. And as I did that through high school, through college, through just my professional life, I started to involve my own and create my own based on kind of my own experiences, owning an education company. And I owned an education company for about a decade. So we would see maybe a thousand students a year.

[00:05:48] Now I would not see a thousand students a year, but my company would. I would see a good number though. And I would use my meetings with my fellow teachers to figure out their students and help them type them. And then eventually I taught my teachers how to type or personality type kids so that they could work better with them. I think that is the coolest thing ever. And I think that like, it's a great tool for like teachers, right?

[00:06:14] Like think about these, these teachers that have like 20, 30 students in their classes, right? If you kind of knew it, their personality types, you could teach at their level and not make it like this. Everybody gets taught the same way. Okay. But not everybody learns the same way. Yeah. You could utilize, you can utilize different people too. I realized some of my better teachers, like a lot of it came from me as a student, right?

[00:06:41] Like, you know how sometimes people are like, well, when someone gives parenting advice, someone's like, well, have you ever been a parent? And it's like, well, you know, but I've been a child. I've had parents and I definitely know how I felt as a child. So for some reason, at least from my observations, certain parents forget how that felt like and they just start, oh yeah, my kids never lied to me. I'm like, really? You never lied to your parents? Come on. Like, don't fool yourself. Like, how are you so different? You know, I feel like the same way with teaching. We've all been students.

[00:07:10] And I know as a student, I was not the best student. I would often cause chaos in the classroom, just being myself. And I realized that the best teachers that I had were the ones who utilized that, who didn't like try to like, no, we're going to like box you in and do this. So they would appreciate me while also trying to get me to respect that other kids, like that I was essentially being selfish and that other kids needed to learn too. And they would use that, I guess, chaos to make the classroom better.

[00:07:37] And I think we can do that with all different types of personalities with our students and our kids. Just kids and parents, but like, think about like workplaces, right? Like, if you knew what your coworkers personality type was, maybe you would talk to them a little bit different. That's HBDI almost, right? Like, you know where you are on that HBDI scale and like how you would talk to people differently. But what I love about yours is that your personality, your system that you built uses

[00:08:06] mythical creatures. And I think that's really fucking awesome. Wait, tell me more about this. I need to know more about it. Animals. Oh, it's, you know, you figure out what animal you are. And like, you know, like obviously a lot of the letter combo personality types, people have done them in college. And then like you ask them like, Oh yeah, I was like a JLM. They, like, they just don't, it's hard to remember. You know? But like, you tell someone, Hey, you're a fox. Then, you know, most people are like, Oh, well, foxes people love because they, we automatically know what a fox is like.

[00:08:36] We always think of like the James Bond character, like very sly and smooth. So no one ever complains about being a fox. You know, sometimes people get like a beaver or something that seems a little boring. So they're like, Oh, I don't want to be that. So, but it is, but they'll remember it. Right. And so I think one of the reasons why is I think we, I've used animals is that it's just something that people can grasp onto and go, okay, like I'm a panda. I'm always gonna be a panda, you know? And funny enough, people who are pandas actually like being pandas. So it kind of works out in that way.

[00:09:05] What are, what are all the animals? Fox, beaver, panda. Ooh, that's a, there's 16. Um, yeah. And what I do is like, this is going to sound really nerdy and wonky, but I group them into four personality packs first. And I also call them packs cause they're animals. I think it's important to know though that they're packs because a lot of times people say, Oh, that that's me. I'm like that person. I'm like, well, you're different, but you do, if you're in the same pack, you will share similarities. Right. But we, so the different packs all have a different core value.

[00:09:35] And then, you know, with depending on the animal you are within that pack, you kind of go for that value maybe in a different way. Right. So I can go through all of them if you'd like. So these, I like, I actually am now genuinely interested because now I'm like, it's become like a game for me. Like I'm like, Ooh, what pack do I belong to? What's my animal? Like I, so the core values. Yeah. The core values of the four, what are they? They are. Okay. So there's the, so I break them down into like gatherers, hunters, smiths, shamans.

[00:10:04] So kind of like the roles in a, maybe a medieval village just so that people can understand, Oh, that's why they're probably more gatherers or there are more gatherers than there are smiths. You don't need, you know, one person to really make the tools and design the tools, but you need a bunch of hunters to use them. Right. So, and that's kind of true in our life and our society too. So I do that as a way to like, let gatherers who make about half the population know that, Hey, by the way, there's like smiths and shamans. You only make up 15% of it combined.

[00:10:32] Like make sure that you realize and recognize them because you're not always going to see them and you might forget about them. So in a long way, gatherers focus on safety and security. So those are like our teachers are police officers, people in the military, generally the people in society just take what they feel is right. And then try to maintain it. Hunters focus on excitement. And I know that sometimes sounds superficial, but I always say, no, it's not just like excitement. Like it's more like getting the most out of your senses, like your sensory feelings throughout your life.

[00:11:02] That's what hunters do. They want to taste everything, smell everything, hear everything, you know, see everything. Shamans focus on self knowledge. So they're all kind of constant journey to discover themselves. So I always say that they don't have a midlife crisis. Their whole life is a midlife crisis. So for the most part, they're always the one who's like, I don't know if I'm what I'm doing is right. You know, I think I'm gonna change my job. I don't know. You know, like that's how they are. And just tell they always been. And then smiths focus on information.

[00:11:30] So they just want to know everything. And I used to say knowledge. But then you say that they focus on knowledge and everyone's like, I'm a smith, you know, because that's very, you know, knowledge is just such a powerful word. So I've decided to make it a little nerdier sounding and say information. So those people are less likely to choose it. They're not smith. So that's the four packs in nutshell. And then within each pack, there are four animals and each animal does different things to attain their information versus, you know, the gatherers. They each do different things to attain security and safety. This is so cool.

[00:12:00] Is it possible to be all four at once? It is possible to act like any of the four, right? Because everyone's like, wait, so you're limiting me. You're saying that I can't do this and I can't do that. I'm like, no, I'm just saying this is your natural, you know, process. But it's okay. You can do different things. But I think sometimes in terms of emotional health, especially because going to school is a very gather environment. And for all non gatherers, they're used to being told, okay, this is how you should do something.

[00:12:30] And why I bring this up is like, I think there's a way that we should do things normally because that's our natural mode. But it doesn't mean that we can't do and borrow from other types because we'll need that to survive in life, right? We need to like think about our security sometimes. You know, we need to have that hunter, like sensory kind of awareness, like very split second awareness, tactical strength in our lives to survive. So I do think we can act like others, but I don't think it's always healthy to try to be like others.

[00:12:58] I think you got to be yourself and focus on that first because that's how you'll like develop the quickest and the strongest just because it's your natural mode. And then borrow from other types. Got it. And I don't know, G, if you know why I was asking that. So we both worked at a company before they made us take this HBDI. Long story short, I remember taking this test and getting so frustrated because the questions were never as easy as they sounded right. Like I'm like, it's never this way.

[00:13:27] Like it's never going to be one choice out of all four. For me, I'm always thinking of all four types at the same time that I make my, before I make my decision. So I struggle, right? Like I'm like, I can't be quick. Like I have to like, is it this? Is it this? How's this? So I asked that because after we took that quiz, I was so mad. Everybody was getting, by the way, after you took this quiz in your new higher orientation,

[00:13:52] you got this little brain squishy toy and they had all these different colors. So if you were a red brain, you got a red. If you're a green, you got green, whatever. Right. I go to get my color and they don't have rainbow because I was a square. So I was an equal and I'm like, no, don't give me a red because I'm, I'm all four. Yeah. Like I was like, I want a rainbow and they didn't have it. It made me mad.

[00:14:18] So when you talked about that, I was like, oh, I wonder if it's possible to be in all four at the same time. Yeah. The tests are so like, obviously I have a test on my website that I designed, but I always feel like, you know, at the end of the day, like the purpose of why I wrote the book was just to teach people to be the test. Because in the end of the day, like, you have people come up and say, oh, I got this. I'm like, actually, I think you're this type. And then they're like, no, but I took the test. I took the test and got this. I'm like, yeah, but I wrote the test. Like, or if you took another test, like I can, you can always break them down like to

[00:14:46] why they're flawed, which of course they should be flawed because they're cookie cutter tests and we are all different and we go about it in different ways. Like I remember once I'm confirming with someone what their type was just with a simple question. I said, do you like wine tasting? She's like, I love wine tasting big capital letters on love. I'm like, okay, I know what you are. And she's like, wait, that's the only question you have to ask me. I'm like, well, I kind of already have a feeling. And that was like a confirmation. Right. And not only your answer, but how you answered it, like tells a lot.

[00:15:13] And so, you know, you adjust based on the person and your gut feeling. Yeah. What made you want to create this test? You know, it was when I first started my education company and I'd already knew about Myers-Briggs, which is the one that I know most about. And mine is kind of an evolution of Myers-Briggs or MBTI.

[00:15:43] And I think I just started seeing that it would be helpful to my teachers to just work with students differently. Now, half the population were gatherers or half our students were gatherers, but that meant another half that were not. And I will say most teachers and definitely in elementary school are gatherers. So I'd say, I mean, I'm pulling this percentage out of my butt, but you know, let's say 85% of elementary school teachers are gatherers, which is great. They're creating a safe environment. They want kids to be like settled and structured.

[00:16:13] But at the end of the day, that doesn't work for the other half. So, and I started seeing assumptions that my teachers were making based on their students. They're like, oh, well, I'm telling them to use a planner because we should always use a planner. And I'm like, well, not every student works well with a planner. And then most of my teachers be like, yeah, they do. They just don't know it yet. And I think that's a danger when people say that, right? Like, it's like when people say, someone says, oh yeah, I don't want kids. And someone's like, oh, you will. Like your parents, you will. I'm like, well, how do you know that person will? You know, like that's not everyone is designed for that.

[00:16:43] Einstein was not designed for that. I know he had a kid and I think he ignored her, you know, but good for us as a society, right? Because we got to benefit from all the work that he did that he was interested in that didn't involve his children, right? Or his kids. So, yeah. So that's what it caught me because I just started seeing my teachers making those assumptions. Like, well, I didn't use a planner and I forced myself to try to use one as a kid and it was not productive. So like, I don't think that's everybody. And that's what kind of inspired me to create this so that I could teach them how to use it. And thankfully it helped.

[00:17:12] I believe it helped many of the students that came to our company. How long did it take to create? Because of the background MBTI, I'd say it took maybe, oh, like in terms of time, I don't know. I would have to say because I was learning for so long, but in when I actually just said, okay, let's just like put down and write it down probably a week to write the profiles.

[00:17:33] But I remember, strangely enough, I remember I was on a trip to Japan and I wrote a lot of them like on the airplane there and back because it's like a 13 hour flight. So I was like, oh, that's something to do. That sounds cool. It's really cool. So I took the test and I came back as a butterfly. Oh, interesting. Did it match? Do you feel like it matched? 100%. What is a butterfly? Tell me about it. So let me tell you what a butterfly is. Hold on. Let me go find it here. Where are we?

[00:18:03] We're here. So a butterfly is gentle and artsy. You prefer to spend your day savoring life as it comes, avoiding stress as much as possible. I don't know this last week. I'm going to knock that one off. You resolve conflict by appeasing or ignoring the source. This gives you more time and emotional space to create your imaginative and beautiful artistic compositions.

[00:18:30] Out of all the types, you are the most in touch with your senses, enabling you to blend color, taste, sound, fragrance, and texture with astounding ease. And I'm telling you that it's like spot on. Sounds like you. Oh, very cool. And then my deviant. What's a deviant? The deviant role is the tortured artist. Wait, tell me what a deviant is. Not you, Eric. Tell me. Sorry, G. Not me. Well, I want the creator. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. What is a deviant?

[00:19:00] So the deviant role is something that basically is just when your type goes bad because everyone always asks, right? Like, what's the best type? Am I the best type? I'm like, there's no best type. Like, I don't know. Why do we make this competitive? Who you are as a person? There's no best type. But there's a best version of a type and a worse version of a type, right? Because we can all go bad and we can all go good. And so my goal is trying to help kids get to the good part. But I would say that what's consistent is depending on your type, you'll go bad a specific way.

[00:19:30] Oh. Like, you know, like a gatherer, when they go bad, like let's say a stag. Stag is like the most rigid and structure of the gatherers. When they go bad, their deviant role is the fascist. Because, you know, part of their strength is creating this safe structure that everyone follows. But of course, that clearly when you listen to that, you can hear how that might go bad. So butterfly, because of their sensitivity things, and we call them butterfly because they flutter around.

[00:19:53] They kind of just go from this and that, you know, because they're so like, I won't say not focused, but they're so, they are so hyper focused on the moment. So that does have you bouncing around, right? Obviously, the weak point of that would be that they're kind of pushovers a bit. They're the tortured artists because they can find themselves with no focus. Where they'll just be like, oh, like, I don't have anything that I really love because I love everything. And then I just kind of do things and I don't really put my heart and soul into this because the next thing comes and then I get into that.

[00:20:21] And so that is at their weakest, they'll flutter around kind of like Rachel from Friends. I think Rachel from Friends is the perfect example of a butterfly. Eric, you just cried me to a T and Dirty, and the only reason Dirty Skittles is laughing is like I own my own business. Okay, I'm 63 years old and I have ADHD. The worst fucking combination of all things you can have. But this is me to a T.

[00:20:49] And I'm also the deviant role because you know what? Yes, I have the angel and the devil on my shoulder. Every now and then the devil decides that, oh, let's fuck with me for a little bit. And so I'm going to read the tortured artist to you, Skittles, and this is why you're going to laugh. There's a self-portrait that seemingly blends watercolor and oil. Or the seven-course meal featuring shark fin and fagwa substitutes that taste like the real thing.

[00:21:18] Fantastic projects that you would complete if you weren't so busy saying yes every time a close friend asks you if you want to get breakfast or see a movie or jack a car.

[00:21:31] And when the scenario arises, when you're not fluttering with the wind like the feather from Forrest Gump, it usually means that you've relegated yourself to the vintage couch you probably stole off the retiring hipster in Silver Lake. Reading the fancy art book that you undoubtedly have laying around on your designer coffee table or drooling over the culinary orgasms taking place on the Food Network.

[00:22:01] All while wishing you had enough time and or talent to create such masterpieces. Fucking spot on, Eric. This is just so funny. So you watch the Food Network quite a bit. I do, as a matter of fact. She's a big cook. When I'm not creating in my head like all the 87,000 different things I want to do every day. I'm glad it fit.

[00:22:28] And you know the deviant roll is like meant to be fun, right? Because, you know, obviously our strengths come from our weaknesses, right? So it's not like you can't eliminate those things. Those are the things that make you strong. It's just have to sharpen them into strengths versus letting them bring you down. I love that. So when you do these personality tests on the kids, like do their eyes kind of light up and they're like, oh, wow, this really does explain who I am. Yeah. You know, the funny thing is I often, me personally, I don't have them take the test.

[00:22:57] I kind of just do it myself, like figure, okay, this is what this person is. And then I talk to them about it often. And they just ask like, oh, like, yeah, they definitely, I don't know they have the light up as much because a lot of them are younger and they don't know the differences in their classmates. Right. They just think everyone is the same. And so what they start, it takes a while for them to start going, oh, like starting to connect the different actions that the people around them are doing, especially their parents versus what they would do.

[00:23:25] And that's, I think, when they start having the epiphany is like, oh, okay, no wonder why, you know, I don't like this person as much as I probably should. This is so cool. This is the coolest thing. I think that like what you should do, Skittles, is like take this test. And then have Nugget. And then have Nugget do it. So Nugget just turned nine. Yes. And like work with Nugget and kind of figure out from him like what he is.

[00:23:53] I think that this is fascinating. And like we need more of this in business culture and in classroom culture because we all have different needs, right? And like in order to meet somebody, you know, across the aisle, you kind of need to have like a better perception of who they are. And sometimes like, you know, Myers-Briggs doesn't always do it for you. And sometimes, you know, HPDI doesn't do it for you. So seeing it through a different light.

[00:24:23] I love the butterfly. And butterfly is like one of my favorite things anyway. So it's awesome. It's less boring, right? Like the other ones are very clinical and dry and boring. But this makes it like it's almost like you're finding out your spirit animal, you know? Like there's a gamification to it that is interesting. And Myers-Briggs, the problem I have, especially with the tests, and I don't like the diagnostic process.

[00:24:52] That sounds clinical. Like I don't really believe in extroversion, introversion. That's a big thing, I feel. And there are books just purely on introverts. And I don't, by saying I don't believe in, I just mean that I don't think that you're either this or that. I think in my experience, it just depends on what the context is, right? So that's why I always bring it back to the value system. You know, what do people value? Like I always say like there could be two versions of outgoing. There's a person who will get up on a table, a bar, in a bar in Cabo and do body shots.

[00:25:21] And there's a person who will go up and give a TED talk. And those are two different people. Generally, they're not the same person. I mean, they might interlap or, you know, occasionally. But, you know, for the most part, they overlap. But most of them are different people. And I think that's why I don't really, whether you're extroverted or you have energy towards something, or you're more reserved, really just depends on whether you're really into it or not. And I think that depends on your value. And that just depends on your personality. And I think it's just very different things. So I don't love that about MBTI.

[00:25:51] So when you're like at the mall, I mean, like for a lot of us, we go to like People Watch. Do you personality watch? Are you like typing them out in your head as they're walking by or watching their interactions? I will say that, yeah, meeting people, especially like I'm really bad with names. And I realized that because people are like, like, wait, you don't remember this person? You just met them. And they just said their name. And I'm like, yeah, but you know, I'll be honest. I was just thinking about what animal they were. And I feel like I do know what their personality is.

[00:26:18] And I feel like in a way that's better because a name doesn't really mean anything as much as knowing about someone. And not to say that I totally know them, but at least I've tried. I talk about that in a book where hopefully it's fun for people and that people do it more often because at the end of the day, it's not like about the certainty of knowing what someone is. You might not never, ever know like for absolute certainty because we're all different. And we all do different things at different times. But it's more like wanting to know. Like going like, oh, I wonder what animal type.

[00:26:46] And by doing that, you're going to try to learn more about this person. And by learning more about them, I think that can only be a good thing because it'll help you like not try to force them to be something they're not. Or try to expect them to be something they're not. Did you, did you tell us the name of this already? The name of the... What's the name of it? Of your personality test? It would be the, so you can find it at utopiaproject.com. So I guess it's called The Utopia Project. But I did the book, the name of the book that I wrote is called The Power of Personality. I didn't choose it.

[00:27:15] My publishers did the name. People like it, I guess. But I was like, oh, that sounds kind of generic. That sounds kind of generic. You know, I wish I had his numbers. No, but anyway, like he, yeah. So it's called The Power of Personality. And you can, you know, it basically teaches you how to be the test, essentially. It goes through the whole process, like the whole methodology. And like, it says, oh, this is how you can figure out if someone is in this pack. And then within the pack, this is how you figure out if someone's a stag or a beaver or a, you know, a bear.

[00:27:44] Or a butterfly. Or a butterfly. Yeah. Yeah. Butterflies are in the hunters. So you're a hunter, essentially. Absolutely. Yeah. Look at you, G. What are you, Eric? I am a baboon, which is not a flattering animal. So like when people are like, I don't like my animal. I'm like, hey, my animal's not flattering either. Okay. It's just like, they just, people just think of them like showing their butts to people. Which I don't do. I don't, you know, maybe I've thought about it. Maybe that's why I put it as baboon. But yeah. What pack is that?

[00:28:14] They're part of the shamans. Yes. So, you know, our big thing is self-knowledge and sharing and helping people gain self-knowledge, I guess is appropriate for my profession and the book that I wrote. And that's like, but the thing is like growing up, it doesn't feel great because yeah, we're the ones who are like, oh gosh, am I doing the right thing? I don't know if I'm doing the right thing. Oh, I'll do something else. Totally different. And I won't, you know, like, so it's always like a trek for us. But the nice thing is once we do reach middle age, we end up not really having that midlife crisis because we've already gone through it.

[00:28:42] So I guess that's a nice thing as long as we get there, you know? I don't know. Overachievers is what that sounds like. Well, yeah, I definitely would not say that. No, I mean, you know, it's good for young shamans to hear that though, because they're always thinking there's something wrong with them. Because they're very, like, there's not that many of them. They only make about 8%. And then the Smiths also only make about 8% of the population, but they're more likely to just say, I don't care. Fuck you guys. Like, you guys are idiots and I'm smart and brilliant with my computer and whatever stuff

[00:29:12] that I'm reading. Yeah. And, you know, which has its own pitfalls. But when it comes to confidence and stuff, they don't lack that. So, you know, for each, each has their own, like, difficulties growing up. And I try to access that when I work with my students to help them get to a better part or get a better place. That's so cool. What is your deviant? So, the baboon is, they call them the bomb thrower, or I call them bomb thrower. They call them bomb thrower. Basically, because when we really get into something, like, and generally, like, we'll

[00:29:41] advocate for it very strongly. And into something meaning like, like a belief system or like something that you really believe. The problem is, much like a butterfly, but more so with, like, belief systems, we might flutter a bit. And we might go like, oh, you know, this is great. This is like the best thing. We got to do this. Yes, let's do it. And you guys should all do it. And it's going to be great. And then something else pops in that's interesting. And then we just, like, revert to that. Like, we're just like, change. And then totally forget the other thing.

[00:30:05] And yeah, so I think at our weak point, we'll be a little bit extreme, maybe in our rhetoric. Because I do think baboons are very good advocates when they're tied in to what people, like, people's needs. But when we lose that, and it just becomes more about, like, hearing ourselves talk about something that's great. I think we can get maybe too extreme. And yeah, that's a bomb thrower. That's the worst. So cool. That's so cool. I'm going to have to take this and, like, update you guys what I get. But that's awesome.

[00:30:35] So what's next for you? You've done this. You're helping. Well, actually, what's the age range that you aim for on this? Because you said for kids, but... Oh, well, the idea is it's everybody. I mean, the book is kind of written in a mature fashion. So, you know, I even like my students... I start students generally around, like, nine or ten. That's when I'm... Generally, because, like, I think that's the time when parents are just like, I don't know what to do with this kid. Yeah. That's... Right. Yes. Correct. Yeah.

[00:31:05] Like, they were listening to me, and they were so cute. And now, like, they're starting to spell. And, you know, like, I don't know why I don't listen to it anymore. And they got these moods, you know? And so... Yeah. That's when I start working on them. And it's always different. But, like, I think this... But I do also have, like, I have older students, like, or I should say clients. I'm sure they want to be called students. But who knows? Maybe we should all be students of life who are, like, around that mid... I don't say midlife crisis time, but, like, around that midlife time, you know?

[00:31:34] And they're just, like, maybe discovering they want to do something different with their life. So I think this is good for everyone. And also, like you were saying, like, it might... Someone might be, like, secure and, like, self-aware of who they are. But once they have a kid, and maybe their kid is different, it's understanding that relationship, right? So not only is it about understanding who we are, but most importantly, understanding our most important relationships, I think. And obviously, parent-child. Like, most of the teachers who I worked with, who got it right away, oftentimes they were parents.

[00:32:04] Like, they're like, okay, I get this. Because sometimes, you know, you're gonna be, like, especially if you have teachers, they're like, oh, I've been taught this certain way. This is all bullshit. Like, you know, you're just trying to get... Excuse kids for doing something that they're not supposed to do, right? But usually the parents were the ones who are like, oh, like, I get it now. Like, no wonder why. Because especially the ones with multiple kids, because they're like, no wonder why. I love my son, and I love them equally. But, you know, my son really pisses me off sometimes. And I like my daughter better than my... Or whatever. I like one kid over another.

[00:32:32] And so that, I guess, gave them a justification for that. It's like, okay, I feel okay liking this one more than the other person. Because I love them equally. But I like... And they realized, oh, because we have similar personalities, so we just gel better. But, you know, with this one, we're always at odds, you know? So, yeah. I'm totally doing it. Totally doing it. Making Nugget, who just turned nine, do it too. And we're gonna get the husband in there. And we're just gonna see, what if we have different packs? We don't know. We don't know. We're gonna find out, though. I so, like, wanna know, too. Well, sure.

[00:33:02] Well, sure. It's more common to have different packs, too. Like, statistically speaking, it's way more common to be different than, you know, your child and your parent. So, but the problem is, I mean, I've interacted with so many parents, right, as owning an education company. So, with 1,000 students a year, that means 2,000 or hopefully 2,000 parents a year. And, you know, a great proportion of them are like, oh, yeah, they're a chip off the old block. I'm like, really? Because they're not. Just telling me, like, just in my head, I'm like, yeah, they're really different.

[00:33:30] And maybe they won't say that because they're not gonna tell you that. But, you know, they are different. And it's okay. That's probably better. Better for a household to have different personalities. You have all the same. That'd be kind of boring. Right. So, what's next for you? Oh, that's a good question. Like, I'm a baboon, so I don't really often think about, I don't plan particularly well. I just kind of go with what I want at the time. There are a couple things. But right now, actually, funny enough, I'm working on, this is gonna be out of left field, but I'm working on a novel.

[00:33:59] Like a fictional novel. Very cool. That takes place in a school. So, there are students there. And I've also been working on a few television shows to try to sell. Yeah. I'm out here in LA. I don't know where you guys are located, but I'm in LA. And that's kind of a big thing here. And I didn't go to school for it, so it's not like something that I was like, okay, let me just do this. But that actually was a random background, but my background is in screenwriting, my academic background, which is kind of cool for personality types because, you know, we're always, when we're doing fictional writing, we're always thinking about what characters.

[00:34:29] So, oftentimes, the way I wrote my book, there's a lot of pop culture references because I feel like people will be like, oh, like, that's the Game of Thrones character I am. So, yes, like, I don't know if you guys have seen Game of Thrones. Oh, yes. Yes. Very interesting. I had a friend who thought this was all bullshit, like the personality stuff. And he's like, yeah, but then when I have a Game of Thrones test on my site that tells you what Game of Thrones character you are, and he got Tormund. Do you guys remember Tormund? Yeah. Yeah. How did he feel about it? Oh, he's like, he texted me. He's like, I thought this was all bullshit.

[00:34:58] And then I took your Game of Thrones test and I got Tormund and my eyes opened up. I was like, oh my God. And then he sent me a description because it is perfect for him. And I was like, yeah, there you go. He's like, that's how he connected with it. And he was like, yes, I'm Tormund and it is perfect. So. That's so funny. That's so cool. Okay.

[00:35:28] I have two of my questions for you. If you can go back in time to a younger version of yourself to give that younger version advice, what would you tell yourself and how old are you? Oof. That's a good question. A little light question. Yeah. I'm going to say, let's say a 12. Yes. I'll say 12 because I think, I mean, 12 is rough for everybody. I feel that it was definitely rough for me, even though it probably didn't seem that way

[00:35:54] from the outside, but it was definitely like, oh man, this kind of sucks. And, you know, and I actually would say the same advice that my dad gave me, but I think I would appreciate it. Not appreciate it. I would accept it more at that age. Now I totally understand it. But at that age, of course you don't listen to your parents. What's the quote from Twain where he's like, yeah, my dad didn't know anything at 12 and he learned so much by the time I had turned 18. Like that's how I would say the same thing my dad said, which what he told me, I think

[00:36:23] I was like maybe seven or eight when he told me that he's like, at the end of the day, and no one gives a shit. So you just got to do what you want to do. You know, like don't worry about what other people want. You know, and I don't think I fully appreciate it, especially at 12 when I was like sagging my jeans and trying to be like wear all this super baggy clothes, which I wish I did now because that apparently that's in again. God forbid, I don't know why, but you know, I used to wear these like size 40s, you know, but yeah, I would tell myself that so that I, you know, I think I would, I probably would evolve and grow a little bit faster than I did.

[00:36:52] All right. Second question is in your life so far, what has been the hardest lesson you've learned? That's, I guess that's fairly related. You know, I will say this, the, probably the hardest lesson I've learned is that this is good to me because as a shaman, we tend to idealize quite a bit. I would say that not that ideals don't exist, but just be prepared for them to be disillusioned for the ones that you feel. And that's okay. That's part of life too. Very cool.

[00:37:22] Well, thank you. So now are my questions and I'm just going to preface it. You know, I guess these are hard questions, but shouldn't be. If your anxiety had a theme song, what is it and why? Oh, my anxiety. Oh, I'd have to think of music. I probably should be able to do that theme song. I definitely know what it would be related to. I definitely know the theme.

[00:37:47] The theme would basically be about like convincing, reminding myself that I'm good enough. You know, not to sound like, what's that character from that Al Franken plays in SNL, but like, I'm good enough and I can do it. Oh, yeah. Where he talks in the mirror or something. Yeah. So I think, you know what? I'll think of, I know of a scene that I think of, which from the scene from Boogie Nights where Marky Mark is singing, I got the power and he's singing awfully. It's so bad. But they're talking about like, oh, yeah, once we get this, you understand, like the record company is going to buy it,

[00:38:17] then we'll get the money and then we'll give you the money. Then we'll have it. I feel like that would be my theme song because I feel I wish that I had that. I would have to remind myself to have that over the top shameless confidence because I definitely tend to lose that. And I do think that in for my personality type, it's good to have that. I think for other personality types, they need to tone it down. Like obviously for his character, he did. But I feel wish and I need that. I need more of that. Love that. I love that. So what's your favorite word?

[00:38:49] Oh, that's tricky to tell, ask a writer that. Oh, I would say enlightenment. And that's so cheesy and corny and it's so packed in. But if I had to pick one, I'd say enlightenment. I think we could all use a little bit of that. And what's your least favorite word? I know my least favorite sound is my alarm clock. So can we put that as like a word? Like what's that called? Onomatopoeia? We'll just do that. Yes.

[00:39:20] I love it. That is definitely the least sound, favorite sound that I have to hear. That is perfect. Perfect. And how can our listeners find you and learn more about you? Well, if you want to take the test, which I'm sure that would, people would prefer that because people want to learn more about themselves than they do me. But if you want to learn about me too, that's perfect. But if you want to take the test, you can go to utopiaproject.com. And the test is called the Utopia assessment or Utopia 16 assessment. And then you figure out what animal type you are. Once again, I will say it's just a test. It's just a cookie cutter test.

[00:39:50] If you take online, if you really want to understand more and like really figure it out, I definitely recommend buying the book. And you can buy that anywhere. Amazon. Order at your local bookstore. And that's called The Power of Personality. And you can find me at a different website because that website doesn't work well with tests. So I had to have two websites, strangely enough. You can find me at projectutopia.com. And you can just learn more about me if you want. Very cool. Thank you. Thank you so much, Eric.

[00:40:19] This was such a great conversation today. Had a lot of fun. Thank you so much for having me again. Of course. Hi, all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm G-Rex. And I'm Dirty Skittles. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. We'd love to listen to your feedback. We can't do this without you guys.

[00:40:49] It's okay to be not okay. Just make sure you're talking to someone.