Nancy Gilette Pt. 2: Co-Regulation, Declarative Language, and Parenting Autistic Kids

[00:00:00] Hi all, this is part two of a two-part episode. Hey there listeners, welcome to Sh!t That Goes On In Our Heads, our podcast where we normalize conversations around mental health. That's right. I'm Dirty Skittles and alongside my amazing co-host, G-Rex, we'll hear you share stories and tips from our incredible guests.

[00:00:24] Each episode we deep dive into struggles and triumphs of mental health, offering practical advice and heartfelt support, because no one should feel alone in their journey. Join us as we break the stigma and build a community of understanding and compassion. Tune in and let's start talking about the shit that goes on in our heads. And it's all about like making sure that you like reduce the stress in your life, right?

[00:00:53] Because of all... 100%. You know, it's all like mind and body, right? And if you're stressed out, your body is just gonna like do stupid things. But I did have a question. Have you ever run into a situation where like the... When you were working with a child, where the parents were like, this is dumb and this isn't gonna work. And I think this is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo.

[00:01:20] And then you were able to like show them the progress of like where you started and where that child is now? Yeah, that's a good question. Because when I get parents who are resistant, which absolutely happens, we go deep into their story. And often what the story has been is that's their experiences they were raised. Just do what you have to do. Suck it up. Keep going.

[00:01:47] You know, all those kind of really of those belief patterns from an authoritative perspective. And then I asked, so how did it work for you? Right? And they're like, well, yeah, exactly. And I'm like, yeah, so we have to do something different. Right? Because, yeah, if that didn't work for you and you feel pretty frustrated about the world, you have a short temper. You know, does that work?

[00:02:16] There's more to life than just getting shit done. Right? I'll never forget there was this one individual I bumped into his mom and their child was now 25. And because I, you know, I work with the whole gamut. I knew this family when child was quite young, about 13, 14. And she said, you know what? My adult child said the most heartbreaking thing to me. He said, Mom, I went to school. I did all the things I was supposed to do in school.

[00:02:45] And then I went to university like you told me that I needed to do. So I did everything in university, you know, and I lived on my own. And now I have a job. I have my license. I'm working. So I might as well die now. Because I did everything I was supposed to do in life. And you're like, oh, yeah, you did. But right, there's so much more to life than just getting shit done. Right. Right? It's about how we feel, what the experience is.

[00:03:14] And so when I slow it down and be like, let's talk about your experience. What do you remember from your parents? When we did not have a good relationship. Yeah. Do you want the same story for your child? You're meeting with me, so I know you don't. But it's about really shifting some of those belief patterns. Because it's not about getting things done. It's the process we need to focus on. Because it's never enough. You know, like all of us, right? I can do, clean my house. Oh, no, I need to do the outside. Right?

[00:03:44] Oh, I walked, you know, five kilometers today. Oh, but tomorrow I gotta do 10. Right? Like we put always like more and more because it's never enough. Because we were raised outside matters most. But no, it's all internal. Right? It's about recognizing, holy shit, I did clean the whole house. And yes, that's enough. But again, we weren't taught that. So we have to shift the conversation now. Right.

[00:04:10] Do you think that sometimes parents need to take their own time out? Oh, 100%. 100%. I do too. I'm just asking. Because I think that, you know, when you are working with a child that does have, you know, behavioral issues. Like we all get caught up. You know, I get caught up. I don't have any kids, but I do get caught up. Right? And I think there are sometimes we just need to take ourselves out of that situation. And like take a beat.

[00:04:40] Yeah. Because I will tell you, there's nothing worse than yelling at your kids. Especially if it's just pure frustration. Because then the kids feel like, oh, well, I did something wrong. But nine times out of 10, they didn't. It's just, you know, mommy or daddy is having a nervous breakdown. Yeah. And they just need to like step, take a step back. I literally, I was going to say, I wish I could remember what happened the other day.

[00:05:08] I just remember my husband coming home and I was upstairs in the room and he opens the door. He's like, hey, what's going on? I was like, I needed to put myself in timeout. And I don't even remember what it was. I'm pretty sure it probably could have been everything all at once. Because sometimes I feel like that where I'm like, a hundred things have happened in five minutes. And I'm overstimulated and overwhelmed. And instead of like yelling, I'm usually like, I need a minute. And like, and go and put myself in timeout.

[00:05:37] But I don't remember like the thing that it was, but I do, I have to, because it'll be too much sometimes. Yeah. And that's regulation in action, right? So when we as parents can recognize to like, mama's going to lose her shit soon. Mom needs to take a break. Because nobody likes it. Nobody likes it. Mom doesn't like it. The child doesn't like it. Nobody loves being in that complete loss of control. I have, you know, I've met so hundreds of kids now, right?

[00:06:06] Of having those big moments. And it's awful, the recovery process. It's really exhausting, right? And so when we can catch ourselves, that's regulation in action. We're human. Of course, we're going to get overwhelmed. That is part of the human experience. But what is not okay is when I take it out on children. And that's the difference. So when parents were explosive, for example, like in my upbringing, when it was explosive, they were at their loss of control.

[00:06:36] And they had no more bandwidth left. They had no more skills in that moment. So then they lost it, which can be hurtful words, yelling, shaming, all that stuff, right? Did we as children comply in that moment? Heck yeah, because we were scared. Right? But when we as parents now can take a moment and be like, whoa, I'm losing my cool. And taking a moment and saying, I need to calm down because nothing good happens in dysregulation. Right?

[00:07:06] That's it in action. So when my child starts losing their shit as they're getting older, my kids now are 13 and 10. So they have different skills. They'll be like, mom, not right now. I need a break. Absolutely. I can honor that. And then we will come back and we will get that dialogue. Our parents, like you said, we didn't have those skills just off their shit because they were just so tired of us. And I get it. Parenting is exhausting.

[00:07:34] I remember I worked with a family before I had kids and I'm still connected with this family. And I'm like, why would you listen to me? I had no idea of the exhaustion. But it wasn't parenting, right? Because it's easier to say, be calm. But yeah, when you have a child with maybe some challenging behavior, maybe he doesn't stop talking or other stims that are really loud. Like I know children have screaming and things like our bandwidth is only so much.

[00:08:03] And there is other resources we can use. Right? So I believe like, yeah, put your ear pods in or loops to reduce the sound. Right? Because the child is doing that behavior for something anyway. And that's another discussion. But if it's impacting your bandwidth, what strategies do you have? I love that you can say, yeah, I just need a break to your partner. Right? There's times with parents who can't even communicate that. So I'm like, let's do a token exchange.

[00:08:31] So like give your husband or your partner like an M&M just to signal I'm out. Right? Rather than having a discussion about it because maybe the person can't at that level. But it's about knowing it's okay to feel the emotion. It's about how do we respond to it in a way that works for everybody. Mm-hmm. Right? So is there like a target age that you try and like start working with the kids?

[00:09:01] Is there like any age that it's better or worse? I'm probably asking this the dumb way. There's no dumb questions. No, exactly. Right? I, well, so this is the unique piece about my practice as well is I don't work with the children. I work with the family, the parents only. Right? And parenting journey is a journey so it can happen in any time.

[00:09:27] It's about knowing what are the realistic expectations within wherever your child or even adult child is. Right? And so I have parents that are, have like a four year old, three, four year old. Right? But then I also have family that I work with a 17 and 18 year old. What we know about the brain is it's a constant evolving organ. Right? We now know about neuroplasticity, all those types of things. When we think about like early intervention is key.

[00:09:57] I think it's because they just haven't had enough time to have other crap. Right? Like us as adults, the amount of information that we take in every single day is bananas. Right? And little tiny beings are still like, oh, a shovel. I'm so excited. I just haven't had the experience yet. Right? So a five year old, my approach is going to be very play based about with simple items. And we're going to do talk about certain processes.

[00:10:28] Right? So visual referencing, declarative language and co-regulation are the three that I talk about. And then we just monitored the activity. But the practices, the process is the same. Right? Yeah. So if I was using declarative language, for example, declarative language is experience based language. So here's an example, real simple example of declarative language. So say if I was walking in a room with a eight year old, like with Nugget. Right?

[00:10:57] And we walk into a dark room. If I was using authoritarian or imperative language directives, I'd be like, hey, Nugget, can you turn on the light? It's dark in here. I can't see. Right? And you'll be like, okay, turn on the light. No problem. If I was to use declarative language, which is experience based, and Nugget and I walk into a dark room, I'd be like, Nugget, it's dark in here. I can't see where I'm going.

[00:11:24] And he's going to look at me and he's going to be like, okay, crazy lady, turn on the light. And then Nugget will make the decision to turn on the light. The difference is the process. Before, I told them what to do. Turn on the light. There's no thinking that needs to be required. But when I say the experience, then Nugget has to process what is the experience and what is the decision I can make based on the information I received. Yeah, it's dark. She says she can't see. We don't want her to get hurt. Turn on the light.

[00:11:54] Right? So that's the difference between declarative language. It's about an experience based language. Right? So that's one strategy. Co-regulation is shared engagement. Co-regulation, we really talk about emotions being at the same level. Yes. And it's also about authentic engagement. So for example, right? Right now, the three of us are hopping on a call.

[00:12:20] But when we went on, we didn't specifically say, okay, I'm the interviewee and I'm going to ask you questions. And then your role, Nancy, is to answer them. Right? We just went into this role. Right? But that's how we know it's authentic. With kiddos, we need to do the same processes. What is the activity we're doing? And how do I ensure it's authentic? Right? The way we know it's authentic is if the other person wasn't there, the engagement wouldn't happen.

[00:12:48] So for example, of this, if I wasn't talking to you, I would just be talking to myself. It's not authentic engagement. Right? If you guys were here and I wasn't on, you guys, which would be great. You guys would have a conversation, but it wouldn't be the same intention of what we're trying to do. Right? So it's the same process of how do we support that connection with children.

[00:13:12] So if you're like, I don't know, easy life skill is slowing down and we're putting the dishes away intentionally. Right? So 50-50. What's mom's role? What's the child's role? So maybe within putting away the dishes, my role is just to take the utensils out and then I hand it to my child. Right? And then they put it away. But it's authentic engagement because we both have a meaningful role. Right?

[00:13:39] Because if you didn't hand it to the child, they wouldn't put it in the drawer. So I'm just taking it out. So that's how we know what authentic engagement is. And so it's really important of that co-regulation, especially with neurodivergence because they prefer their path. Right? Why do I need to put away the dishes? You just want me to... You just tell me what to do. Or, you know, how do we make it authentic and meaningful? Right? And the next one is visual referencing. And this is my favorite one because it's so simple. We just don't slow down enough to do it.

[00:14:09] So say what you're doing of putting away the dishes. Right? What I want, what I encourage families to do is when you're taking out the utensil and handing it to the child, I want you to take a pause and wait for your child to visually reference you. That doesn't mean eye contact. It can mean they're looking at your ears, your nose, your mouth, whatever. Because we're changing it from a me to a we.

[00:14:35] What often kids do, especially now, is they focus on the object and not with the other person. So when we're slowing down and supporting, hey, this is connection. That's all the brain needs to start. Oh, right. We are connected with someone else. And it's literally just pausing, waiting for that reference. And then like, oh, it's like a one second process.

[00:15:03] But we don't slow down to do it at all. Right? Half the time, like if we're doing stuff, mom, I want this. Okay. I'm making my coffee and I hand my item to my child. And there's no connection other than the item. Right? But we need to slow down. And we need to attune to our children in every stage of life. Because we need that connection. Right? That's part of us as human connection, as social beings. Yeah.

[00:15:30] So those are the three things that I teach continually. Because then that helps remember, oh, right, it is a connection. Oh, right, our brain is both getting that good feeling. Because mom and kids, tight. Dads and kids, tight. Your primary caregiver, tight. Mm-hmm. You just need to show it in a different way. Rather than just always doing things. And that's what creates a positive experience. Yeah. It's slowing down.

[00:15:57] I have to share because I remember like taking note of it in the moment. But I can remember me and Nugget were like, we had like a summer party night. And so it's usually an air mattress in his room. Very fucking uncomfortable. But I'm there, right? Because it makes him happy. And I remember I'm laying on this air mattress and he's talking to me about something. And I stopped. This is gonna sound silly. But I stopped what I was doing to listen. Where normally I am consumed with something else.

[00:16:26] Like you can talk to me and I'm kind of listening, but I'm not. And so I remember stopping what I was doing and like looking at him because I'm watching what he's saying and I'm focused and I'm listening to what he's saying. And I remember he like looks at me and I think there was like that moment where I, as a parent, realized I'm usually not comfortable like diving in and connecting with somebody. But because this is my child and I love them so much, I didn't shy away from it. And like, I didn't like, you know, look somewhere else.

[00:16:55] Like I held his gaze and like we had this connection and he immediately was like so happy and so loving and giving me love and hugs. Oh my mom, I love you so much that you're here with me or whatever. And I'm like, it was really rewarding. I should do this more often, you know? Like I should stop what I'm doing and really focus and not shy away from that. But I remember, and I mentioned that because it doesn't come natural for me. So I have to make the effort to not shy away from like that intimacy almost,

[00:17:23] like that connection with somebody that you love very much. So if anybody out there listens and can relate, you're not alone. It's, it was uncomfortable, but it is literally my favorite thing now. Like I love that we can connect on that level and just laugh about something silly, you know? Well, and for me, that's true attunement, right? That moment of having the shared experience at the same time is what your brain loves, right?

[00:17:53] And often when I talk about visual referencing for families, it's that feeling that only you can understand. And knowing that's the feeling that our children want, right? Right? Neurodiverse or not, kids want connection more than anything. We now have the science saying how valuable connection is, and it really impacts the way the brain continues to develop.

[00:18:16] But our world is so busy, we're not doing the true easy peasy strategies that mean the most. That was part of the shit that went on in my head all the time. It can't be this easy. It can't be this simple, right? But then when I do the research and look back on several different amazing psychologists like Dr. Gross Green, Dr. Siegel, Daniel Siegel, my favorite, Dr. Gabor Mate, right?

[00:18:44] It's really talking about the relationship and the connection is everything. Going to support how your child develops into the adults of contributing healthy, right? It's those little things. And all the strategies that I say are so simple, but it makes the biggest difference. And then us as parents be like, oh, that's all I need to do? Yeah. And that's enough. That's what kids want. Nothing more.

[00:19:13] Right? But we got in our heads about, well, we need to do this and I need to have this experience done. It's just being seen and felt. Right? And we forgot to take, we take the feeling out of living. Mm-hmm. We do everything else, right? And so it's just knowing that feeling, trust it, and that's what you want to feel as often as you can because it's not just you that feels it, your child does too. Yeah.

[00:19:39] Right? And you know, if we, like, I'm very holistic, but if we look into like, you know, quantum physics, right? Energy's everything. Yeah. It doesn't change just because your child has a neurodivergent brain. Right? If anything, I think neurodivergent is more sensitive to it. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Right? I am curious because it's so funny because like you talked about the checklist and I never thought about it that way.

[00:20:05] But like when he was younger, for sure we were operating off of a checklist, right? Like we're like, well, we have a young boy, like we have a boy child, so surely he should play baseball. Well, that didn't go anywhere because he was like, no. And then we were like, what about soccer? You love balls. So like, but we did, we signed him up for something and now we have this commitment that we have paid for and you didn't like it the first game. It's okay. This is now a life lesson for you.

[00:20:33] Like stick through something that you didn't even choose. Right? So like, I remember us going through that and in that sort of experience, both myself and my spouse, like finding that we thought differently. Right? Like, so for me, I wanted, and this might be like the mama bear in me, but I'm like, well, he clearly doesn't like it. I don't want to force him to do it. Like, let me save him from that uncomfortable experience. And then my husband on the opposite side of like, no, we've signed him up. We've got this. He's very much the checklist. Right?

[00:21:04] And now we find like that middle ground because I think through having Nugget diagnosed with ADHD and all of the journey that we went through, we realized like, oh, this isn't about our shit. Right? Like, we've got to come together to find what's best for this individual and make sure that they've got what they need. And that was a pivotal moment for us. And we, I think it's, I think what you do is beautiful because I am so focused on making sure the child has what it needs.

[00:21:33] But knowing that there's somebody out there like you, that's working with the parents, that's beautiful because it's just, it's not easy. It's difficult. And when you have two different parenting, I guess, styles where he's checklist and I'm, you know, the touchy feely, like got to protect him. And, you know, we can clash sometimes, but when you do have that common goal in the middle of where it's this child who may be as neurodivergent, definitely has ADHD.

[00:22:00] Like how do we come together for that one vision of what is best for that kid and making sure that we're showing up to be able to do that. Right. So I, yeah, I need to find somebody like you in Georgia so that we can do that because I see such, like, I feel like that's the missing piece.

[00:22:23] You know, like we're researching on our own and we're trying to come together with what we believe or, you know, but it would be nice to have the help. And that's what I loved about RDI.

[00:22:47] So RDI is Relationship Development Intervention and we have consultants all over the world and it is intended for parent training, for them to learn of the skills and the practices of how to support their child. Of course, every consultant is unique in how they deliver their approach, but there's the concepts are so similar. So what you're talking about, again, is something that we as consultants start right away is talking about what is the big picture?

[00:23:16] What is the goal? Right. It's not about me versus you. It's about how do we support the child best. But first you got to come to where, what do we want? Right. And we have to do, and what we do is we break it down into three different times, six months, two years and five years, because your thoughts are going to be so different from today versus who is Nugget going to be in five years? A team. Holy crap. Right. Right. What's the most important thing about teens?

[00:23:44] Right. Let's have an open relationship. We can force them going into soccer, but that can also really create a lot of obstacles within our world. Right. And again, when we can remember what are we working towards, it helps sustain us as grounded. Because then we have that common belief of what we want for our teens. Instead of just reacting, oh, we're reacting to what's eight. And then all of a sudden, oh my God, your child's 15. Now what? Yeah. And so it's always about what is the bigger picture.

[00:24:14] My bigger picture with everything that I do is the simple term of quality of life. And that includes with my children. I want them to have a quality of life. What that means is to do the things that they give them joy, have learning opportunities, and knowing that they always have someone safe to come back to. Because that's what's going to matter in the bigger years as they're older. Right. When the kids are young, like for me, we're just in survival mode as parents.

[00:24:43] Because we're still not sleeping properly. Right. Our kids are waking up at 630. I have families, children wake them up at 3. I've had a family that only gets an hour of sleep at a time. Right. Like you're just in survival mode. And the biggest thing there is how do we hold it together? You know what I'm saying? Because what I found is I used to do direct services with kids. But when I found the parents do better, the kids did better. Uh-huh. And also children are your commitment for the rest of your life.

[00:25:13] They don't go away as soon as they turn 18, like a lot of child services. Right. Parents are there. Right. G-Rex said, you know, as she lost her parent as an adult, it's devastating. It's profound. Because we're parents long term. When they're five. When they're eight. When they're 15. When they're 23. And so on. I miss my mom so much. I have so many questions. And I wish I could gain her wisdom.

[00:25:40] And we also had a really, you know, dysfunctional relationship. And God, I miss her. Right. And I want to create a different relationship with my children of having that healthy relationship. But I don't know how I'm going to live. But I want them to have those core experiences that mom was there because that's true love and support. That they felt safe. Which is massive. Because all of us as humans need a feeling of safety. Right.

[00:26:11] And a cheerleader. And we need that. And so how can we support our children through this journey of life? Not just right now when they're four. And we're focused on eating utensils. They'll figure it out. Trust me. We focus on eating utensils at four. Trust me. When they're 13, they'll learn. Right. I was going to say. Right. During COVID. Right. I homeschooled my children for two and a half years during that time.

[00:26:36] And it was the best gift because I went into the research and the literature about unschooling. Right. And it's about trusting development. It comes. It's not a race. It's meeting where the child is at. Where they're developmentally at. And working with who they are. Full stop. So I have 15 year olds that may be in a developmental place of being five. Okay. So we work with that. Sweet.

[00:27:03] I'll watch, you know, back in the day, bubble guppies. If that was your thing. Then I'm going to expand it because then we're going to think about what is under the sea. What kind of things. Right. And then we expand on it. Rather than being like, well, you can't do that because that's not age appropriate. I don't believe in that. Because at the end of the day, you have to live with yourself. You have your main relationships. Other people, they're doing their own relationships.

[00:27:30] So for me, it's about how do I support the strength in the family that is now and long term. I'm always working myself out of a job. And so, you know, and because I believe in family. I believe when we can support our kids, our children do amazing things. I have one family that comes to mind and I have several different families, but there was one child that I met was 13 and he was on the verge of getting kicked out of school. Parents were in burnout.

[00:27:59] Mom was like, I'm at what's end. Mom and dad were fighting constantly. He was so dysregulated. So we did the process. We really talked about some of our belief system and implemented a lot of the strategies that I talked about. And by the time he graduated, he got his license. He attended full-time school. He had his first romantic relationship. He got a part-time job. He traveled to Germany on a school trip. Right?

[00:28:29] Because now we taught different skills so he can manage his regulation versus being dysregulated at this crazy world. So with those supports and those strategies, he became what he wants to do. If we just focused on his challenging behavior that was happening, it would have continued to happen. But the reason why challenging behavior was happening is because we were all talking too fast.

[00:28:59] Too much information. Not enough clarity. Not slowing down. Right? And so it was just reactive. But when parents were able to slow down, simplify the language, use declarative language instead of directive language, the brain started opening up. Right? And then continued to learn. And so now he's like, you know, he's graduated. He has a full-time job in an entrepreneurship at a mechanic shop. Like, I don't know. That's pretty darn good.

[00:29:28] He has a group of friends that he gets to call out and hang out with. They go, his preferred interest is racing cars. So, you know, they'll go see different racetracks on the island and also in the States. So now he has this community that he's created based on who he is. Rather than being like, oh, you can't go there because you might lose your shit. Right? No. It's about shifting it in a different way. Right?

[00:29:53] So it's about, again, for me, it's about how do we empower, how do we understand, and how do we focus on what truly matters? Yeah. Because the opposite could have been, we couldn't have supported him. And he would have been kicked out of school. He would have, like, continued to be in dysregulation crisis. Parents were still, you know, in conflict, shut down to engage with the child. We know that the outcome of that is not positive. Yeah.

[00:30:21] When we talk about people who have significant challenges, I encourage you to hear their story. And their story is pretty intense, what they experienced as a child. Yeah. Right? And so when we can start changing that narrative, there's got to be other options that can happen. Yeah. What do you do every day to, like, make sure you're showing up? Do you have a routine? Do you have things that you know you've got to do to be at the right headspace? Yeah.

[00:30:51] It's something I really notice. And again, it's ever-changing, too, because my kids are at different stages now, right? And again, that's when I really have a lot of empathy for parents, because we're trying to just get through the day. Like, I love it when people always say, the best thing you can do is get sleep. Well, if you are a parent with a neurodiverse child, that is the last thing you're getting, is sleep. Right? So we have to remember the reality of life. So when my children were young, yeah, I reflect.

[00:31:17] And even though I knew a lot of behavior, but I know I knew I had to do a lot of work with me, especially, too, because I had IBS issues, blah, blah, blah. Right? And so I wouldn't say that's my best moment, but what I did make some pretty big changes in my life, because I knew I could. I used to be an executive director of a beautiful nonprofit agency when my children were six months and two. And I broke. I broke and I was like, nope, this isn't for me. Right? I can't do it.

[00:31:46] So we made a pretty big life change and moved to come to Vancouver Island, which is nice and much more relaxed. So there was that intentional environment shift. But now as my children are older and I'm having some more time for myself is mornings are the best. When you can get up and the world is quiet. It's hard to do, but man, it feels good. Right? And also, you know, knowing, too, life is intense. And that's when I do seek other resources.

[00:32:16] I have Crohn's. My physical body is challenged. So I use other resources. CBD is a huge healing for pain. Right? That's part of my practice. Right? Also, extra vitamin D, B, iron. Right? So there's a lot of things. I also don't go on social media. Even though there's some social media, I have reduced my social media huge. I don't have it. It's too much for my brain.

[00:32:45] I love arts. When my mom died and I was going on the journey of what is this world about? Because when you lose someone so close to you, sometimes it helps people really dig deep. And I dug deep. And I started seeing an art therapy and art opened a whole other world for me. I had no idea. But I'm curious, right? If that's my preferred interest with my own neurodiversity. Because I don't know. There's so many similarities.

[00:33:15] But I know as a child, it wasn't deemed a useful skill. So it kind of... Whether it was intentional to squash it or whatever, for whatever reason, I squashed it. And I didn't draw or anything like that for 40 years. And then when my mom died, I picked it up. And it's... I love it. Do I do it for selling or anything? No. It's for me. I need something mean. We give so much to so many other people. It's important for me of what fills up my bucket.

[00:33:44] But we have to first investigate that and make the time to do it. Right? And utilizing other pieces. I think for parents, I think CBD is so an option. Especially when you have neurodiverse kiddos. Because it's so intense. And it's crazy to me that we are so much information. We have so many tools. But we're scared to use some of the tools that we have in our world. For judgment. For whatever.

[00:34:14] I know in the States, certain states allow it. So don't. But again, it's just like... You're living... I'm only living my life. I'm paying my bills. How can I live the best I can with the tools that I know are out there? Right. Right. And so it's just knowing how do we use what's out there that makes me feel better? So, you know, thinking... And I encourage people to think about what did you do as a child? Right?

[00:34:39] I learned that when I was four years old, I would color for like five hours at a time. I now know that's not typical to be so focused. But that may have been my preferred interest. Right? But it stopped it for whatever reason. But like, yeah, I would ask your parents, what did I like to do when I was a child? Because that's the most authentic you doing things because of that internal motivation. Not because of external.

[00:35:06] I would love to know what the young Dirty Skittles like to do as a child. I was just thinking about that. I'm like, what did I? I was... I would lock myself in my room a lot. And I was always reading or listening to music. So I think that's why now at the age that I'm at, I don't know why I shied away from like those things that I love to do so much. And went on this whole I'm in my taking care of me era.

[00:35:35] And so I made my little dark office cave where I love... Like, when I say I love, there's something that it like, it scratches this itch, right? Where I can come up here, set the mood in this office, dim the lights if I want. I'll put like a fucking dragon flying in a rainstorm on my TV. And I'll sit here in that dim lit room reading a book. And it... Because you know what it is? It gives my brain this escape.

[00:36:03] So I can literally visualize the words that I'm reading. So I'm like watching like my favorite movie over and over again. So there's comfort there where other people... My husband is a social butterfly. So for him, he's like, you're just like hiding away. You don't want to talk to anybody. Like, it's odd that you go... No, like I couldn't be happier to be in a dark space with books and sounds. And lights and... That's my shit. So...

[00:36:32] And I can feel it as you describe it. Because I know how good that feels in your brain. And you hit it on the head. Your husband is the opposite. He loves social, right? But we think that's the only way to be is social. The truth is, no. If that is what fills your heart and you feel so good, like the way you described it, I'm like, I could feel it with you. Yeah. That is what fills your cup. So I'm glad you're giving your space and permission.

[00:37:02] Because again, what we have taught kids is being on your own is isolating. It's wrong. No way. Right? And say, that's okay. That works for your husband because we're all different. Yeah. Right? And so... But it's about giving the space to have whatever you need within reason, of course. Right? Yeah. You have your little cave. I have my little she cave too. It's... My husband would have an ulcer in here. Because it's my art. And everywhere, it's messy, but it's my space.

[00:37:32] He loves hockey. So he's like committed to the hockey world. Right? I have a hard time just because of who I am with the competition, the amount of emotions, the... Like to me, it's like, holy cow, this is overstimulating. But for him, he loves it. And that's cool. And it's okay to be me too. I used to try to convince myself that I should be doing more. I need to be out there. I need to do that. Right? Like you said, your body will tell you.

[00:38:02] No. Right now, one of the decisions I made with my Crohn's is I'm not traveling right now to do some presentations. I need to stay home. And that's okay. But we have the internet. We have different tools now. So I'm doing more of the online kind of support. Because my nervous system needs it. Right? It's so beautiful that you recognizing. And then you can also be modeling for your child to say, yeah, you have something that you love that fills you up. Oh, enjoy it. Right?

[00:38:32] Because that's what recharges. No. Right? But we as parents get so concerned. Oh, they're isolating too much. Oh, they're not participating. They're not growing. Nothing's challenging them. Um, growth happens in good foundational space that feels good, that we're supported, and that we can give time. Right? That's what childhood is about. The young year. It's like when we think about, like I would even say like, you know, 18, when the kids are

[00:39:01] at home, like from high school, I really believe that is the foundational years for our lifelong. Mm-hmm. Or as we become adults, so we don't become so messed up. Right. Trying to figure it out. Right. Right? So yeah. And it's funny that like when I listen to you guys, I'm like, you're safe spaces. So I am a complete extrovert. But there are still days that I want to be kind of just tucked in.

[00:39:28] And so I have my office and, you know, I bought myself this really like ginormous couch. It's dirty, because I'm telling you, it's so big that I have a hard time getting out of it. Of course. But it's like my safe place, because when I lay on it, I feel like I'm being wrapped in love. And sometimes, yeah, I love people, but other times I just need alone time. And, you know, my wife and I are direct opposites.

[00:39:57] She is a complete introvert. I am me. I get extra extroverted sometimes. But we found a way that we can be together. And it's not too much for her. And it's not too much for me. But we've also been together for 31 years. And it was something we had to learn to do. Yeah, that's right. Right. And again, it's about understanding what works for us and how it works for everyone. Right.

[00:40:27] So it's again, noticing what brings us joy. So I love, like, because when both of you are describing, these are sensory supports. Right. And in the autism world, that's what we focus on is what is a sensory environment. Right. So G-Rex, when you're on the couch, you get that kind of deep pressure and that steel that just feels so good. Right. There's a sensory support offered that feels good. Right. Skittles, when you're talking about, like, I think of auditorily, right, the music.

[00:40:56] And then there's also some visual stimulation with the thing on the dragon. And then also what's going on in your brain, right? You're a visual person. You think in pictures. Right. And again, it's just about knowing what works rather thinking, because you don't see any of that on TikTok. You know what I mean? Of somebody just piecing out in their room and just listening to music. It's like, oh, right. I need to do something else because we're visual creatures. Right. But the truth, what I want to encourage people to do is, yeah, oh, it fills your bucket.

[00:41:27] And celebrate it because it's unique to every single person that supports our body in a way that works for us to keep going. Right. And so I think, like, I love that you guys implemented that in your world already. A lot of people don't even give themselves a chance, especially when they have children who require extra supports. And it's the first thing you need to do rather than the last. Right. Because it's about shifting that relationship.

[00:41:54] Because when you come out of your space, how do you feel? Oh, like I just took my bra off. Let's do it so you can do it. Yeah. I'm like, it's like taking your bra off. Then you're going to get to a point where you don't even wear a bra. Right. I'm like, it's like taking it off. And when you start to scratch on like where the freaking straps have been sitting all day, that's what it feels like. It's like, ah. Yeah. Revive. And I'm in the stage that who needs a bra? Who cares? Right. Yeah. Right? What bra? Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:42:24] Do I own one? I don't think I've worn one in like so long and I figure out what it looks like. Oh, it's too funny. Okay. I have two questions for you. These are my infamous questions because I like to selfishly ask them because I don't know. You learn from everybody.

[00:42:49] If you could go back in time to younger version of yourself to give that younger version some advice, what would you tell your younger version and how old are you? Again, simple things, right? I've visioned little Nancy at about nine. And I just need someone to say it's going to be okay to support me rather than leave me, right?

[00:43:18] Or shut me down or shut me down or whichever, right? That's part of the inner child healing is to know I'm supported, not just by the people around me, but even bigger picture, right? I do believe in mind, body and spirit and spirit looks whatever it looks like for a person, but really trusting that. It's not easy, but now as 47, I can look back and I can think of, I do have support around me.

[00:43:48] And when you have support, limits are there, right? It's limitless. When you're nine and you have someone saying, hey, I got you, it's pretty powerful. When I think of myself at 25, it's the same thing. Trust the process, right? Did I ever think I'd be talking to a very successful podcast talking about neurodiverse autistic kids and how I feel and what my perspective is?

[00:44:17] Not in a million years. Not in a million years, right? But we don't know what life brings. And you just have to know who you are because once you are and you're aligned, shit happens. Beautiful things come, right? It's trusting that. So it's deep work. Like I remember when my mom died and I got that news at two in the morning and I went to sleep after that, after tears.

[00:44:43] And then I remember being scared to put my feet down on the floor because I was like, the world's going to be different. My mom died. The world's different. Put my foot on the floor and nothing changed. And I was like, you mean life just keeps going? So we live one life. We have to do what works for ourselves to support our longevity of whatever that looks like, right?

[00:45:09] Because, you know, in RDI, what we're also promoting is learning a dynamic intelligence. And dynamic intelligence is how to cope with the ever-changing world. It changes all the time. We change all the time. How do I sustain regulated and curious to do that? But first, I have to believe in myself. Right? And that's when you're learning a lot of your childhood stuff. Right? So support is there.

[00:45:40] Trust in yourself. Because life is long and you'll see what happens. And that'll be too short. Right. I find older people have such wisdom. But when they tell you and you're in the thick of it, you're like pound sand. Yeah, right. Like I remember when people were like, oh, your children are so cute. You enjoy every minute of it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, you enjoy every minute of it. I'm up five times a night and I'm barely functioning.

[00:46:10] Right? But now as time's gone on because time does go on no matter what. You look back and you're like, right. That is a short time. Yeah. But you only know it once you experience it. And that's the piece that I think is so important to remember. We are the creators of what we want. We just need to use the tools that are in this world to do it. All right. Second question. What would you say has been the hardest lesson that you've had to learn so far? To believe in myself.

[00:46:43] Again, our world is so big. Something that's really unique about me is I've done exceptionally well in my career. I don't have a degree or a master's. Right? And so that is very uncommon in the autism community as a professional. Because we usually are hiring people with BCBAs or a master's degree. I have an RDI consultant. But the reason why I was able to get it was because of my vast experience.

[00:47:11] And again, my passion for what I do. But even to this day, I won't get a job because I don't have my degree. And we're a master's. And that really challenged my value of who I am, of what I'm worth. Am I on par? But I had to trust and believe in what the evidence was presenting. Of families being so grateful to learn a different perspective.

[00:47:37] For family to have the skills to navigate not only when their child's 13, but also when they're 18. Right? When I have families saying, oh, you get this. That to me is the currency that matters most. So, but it's a very hard thing to stand still in because I'm in a world where education, the structured education is such a high value.

[00:48:02] And so, you know, it's really hard to kind of be a lone soldier sometimes in this crazy world. And I doubt myself all the time. But what I notice is when I can be authentic, my body feels better. When I'm not being authentic, I'm sick. And Crohn's is why. Right? But we also know, like G-Rex said earlier, I have to really manage my nervous system. So it's not an easy journey.

[00:48:30] There's a lot of things that I have to like yesterday, for example. I couldn't do very much. I just peaced out and watched and binge watched on a Netflix show because the day before I did a three-hour presentation in my community. And it was amazing, but oh, it was exhausting. Right? But what I should be able to do is get up the next day and just go. It's only three hours. You can do it. Right? But my body says no. So now I have to be like, oh, right.

[00:49:01] It's too much for me. I need to rest. It's okay. Right? So it's about believing in what my body needs, who I am. And that has to be the, it is the enough. And just keep going. Because like, again, when I'm not aligned, that's when I'm not doing well. If you're aligned, you'll keep going. So it's a continual journey. Right? I'm sure you guys too can relate with that. I have kids that question me all the time. Like, they're like, well, why do you want that? Why do you say that?

[00:49:30] And I'll be like, I'm not sure, but I'm going to get back to you. Right? So, but it's a constant process, but I'm very aware of it. And my whole thing is not to be reactive. And I try my best to do it. But I do make some pretty interesting choices. Right? Because I don't do things that are traditional. Like, my daughter plays hockey and she's a phenomenal hockey player. Can I go to every game? God, no. That's too much for me. Right? Small talk with people.

[00:50:00] If we can't go deep, it's like insanity to me. So I don't really put myself out there all that much. Right? But if somebody wants to talk near a diverse, holy, you have my attention for however long you need. But if you want to talk about the weather, no thanks. Right? Right. I've also had to shift some boundaries of relationships. And even within my family. Right? So it's a constant evolution of who I am, of who I'm becoming, of what my body needs. But going back to right, what works for me.

[00:50:30] And behavior is communication. So when I know things aren't working for me and behavior is showing up, that's when I have to pause. What's not working? What can I change? You know, and put the strategies in place. And that's the constant similar process that I believe with every soul. Once we understand ourselves, we put the implements, the strategies, and the supports. We'll do pretty good. Thank you. Yeah.

[00:50:56] So my questions are a little, you have to think maybe a little less. But we keep laughing about this because it stumps everybody all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If your anxiety had a theme song, what is it and why? I just did this course with some people. And it talks about that negative voice in your head that, you know, that constantly brings you down or whatever. Right? And it's called Blanche. And so when you asked me that question, the song that pops into my head is Golden Girls.

[00:51:26] I was going to, when you said Blanche, I heard it. Yeah. Right? Because, you know, it's, it changes. Blanche shows up in different ways all the time. Right? But we're all living together in the same casing in a sense. Right? It's just calling them out. You're like, thanks Blanche for showing up. We're so needed today. We're good. I'm going to hang out with Estelle. We're just going to bullshit at the coffee table. It's good.

[00:51:55] So it's just naming the anxiety because anxiety, again, is an overactive imagination. And that to me is because we're like, it freaks us out. Right? With anxiety. We worry. We fixate. Right? Because we're unsure of what it's going to be about. But we have to trust ourselves. Anxiety comes up all the time for me still. Right? And it's just like, right. No, thanks Blanche. We're good. Get peace out. Go do what you need to do. Yeah.

[00:52:25] Fuck out Blanche. Yeah, exactly. I don't know why. That's what came to my head when you asked me that question. Do you right? I love it. It's Blanche and it's the... Golden Girls theme song. Golden Girls. Golden Girls. I loved it. So, um... Unexpected. What's your least favorite word? Like, appropriately or non-appropriate? It can be. Whatever you want to use.

[00:52:55] We're not very appropriate. We have sweary language on here. Um, well, the word, of course, that gets me triggered is the R word. Drives me bananas. Immediately, yeah. I don't often stay quiet. I often will say, oh, I wonder if you know a different word. Because that's rude. It's almost like the two bits. So that's a pretty big trigger for me. Or when children are being manipulative. That's a hard one for me too.

[00:53:23] Because I don't believe that. But I want to know how our listeners can find you. RDI. So, if you want to learn more about RDI, I would highly recommend people to check out the website, which is www.rdiconnect.com. And that's when the amazing Dr. Gutstein and Dr. Sheely, who are the founders of RDI, have podcasts, articles. You can find consultants around the world.

[00:53:53] So I definitely recommend people to check it out and go deeper into RDI. Because it truly is a game changer when you're supporting your neurodivergent child. No matter what level they are at, we need children of where they are. So I really highly recommend people to check it out. It's changed my life, this whole program. And then for me, right? You just go to nancygillette.com.

[00:54:21] So nancy with one L, G-I-L-E-T-T-E.com. I always say if it had two L's, I'd be part of the franchise, but I'm not. But you guys might get this. I am the best a man can get. Oh, hey. Nice. I just think it's hilarious. Nobody else does, but I think it's pretty funny. Yeah, so you can go to my website. It's still an evolving process as well.

[00:54:49] Because I will be launching my online group to do the autism shift teaching. And so there'll be updates on there. And then also join my Facebook group. And it's called Autism, A Different Perspective. And that's where also I'm sharing information, different perspectives of how I look at the world, how I support neurodiverse kiddos, knowing that behavior is communication, knowing that it's a journey. It's not a life sentence.

[00:55:18] And just wanting to provide some hope and some positivity in the neurodivergent world. Because I believe neurodivergent kids are here to change the world. They're here to shake us up, to teach a different way of being, because it's not about a checklist. It's about an experience that's worth living. And neurodivergent, as you know your child, you know when authentic is happening because your child is like in joy. And we want that for humans. We want that for our kids.

[00:55:47] Life is too serious as we get adults. We need to remember, right? Right. There's so much joy in this world too. So yeah, that's where people can find me. And message me. I don't have an email subscription or anything to find my emails, but I encourage people to message me if they want more information or to connect. Because I do work with families. And yeah. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Nancy. This was such an incredible conversation.

[00:56:16] Even for me, it's not being a mom. Mm-hmm. Because I do, I see how other moms work with their kids and your methods are like spot on. And I will say to you, Darius Fiddles, I'm super proud of you. Oh, thanks, bud. Because you are showing Nugget the light. Good. And you are his light. And you're being your authentic self with him. Mm-hmm. And in the next five years, you're going to see such a dramatic change in him. Mm-hmm. Welcome to the teenage years.

[00:56:45] Have a good time with that. No, I'm kidding. Like, I just really appreciated this conversation. And like, thank you for, you know, waiting so long to get on the show. Yeah, thank you. Oh, I'm so grateful. And yeah, I believe timing is divine because I've learned so much even from like us waiting a while because who I was last year when we were supposed to do this to who I am this year. Two different people, right? And it's knowing that's part of the human journey.

[00:57:14] It's continually evolving, right? And so, yeah. So thank you so much. And I love the authenticity of this conversation. Thank you. I love just how you're like, yeah, you know, and I love talking about this. I hope you can feel it because it truly is my passion. And I just want people to feel better in a very intense world. Yay. It's a simple motivation, but I believe it's powerful. It is powerful. Hi, y'all. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. I'm G-Rex. And I'm Dirty Skittles.

[00:57:44] Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review this podcast. We'd love to listen to your feedback. We can't do this without you guys. It's okay to be not okay. Just make sure you're talking to someone.